Under the Banner of Heaven: Les Langford

Les Langford Interview – transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

lafferty, dan, murders, ron, arrest, wrote, called, highway patrol, told, randy johnson, utah, contact, law enforcement, thought, crime, court, officer, constitutionalism, church, point

SPEAKERS

Les Langford, Craig Foster, Trevor Holyoak

Craig Foster  00:00

Hi, my name is Craig Foster. And this evening, I’m interviewing les Langford. And what we’re going to do less is just perhaps he could give some background, you know, where were you born? Where did you grow up and say a little bit about how you went into law enforcement and just kind of a quick overview of your career in law enforcement.

Les Langford  00:24 LES LANGFORD BIOGRAPHY

So I was born and raised in southeastern Idaho, Montpelier, Idaho. I went to school at Idaho State in 1968. And I actually joined the LDS church while I was up at Idaho State. I went in the Marine Corps in 1969, a Vietnam veteran, I got out of the Marine Corps in 1972. And I knew that I wanted to go into law enforcement. At that time I applied for and was hired by the Utah Highway Patrol. I worked for the Utah Highway Patrol from 1972 to 2002. So I did 30 years with them.

Craig Foster  00:59

That’s great. All right. Well, thank you. So what I want to do is to ask a few questions about your experiences given that you that you joined the church eventually. So you were LDS, as you were a highway patrolman. What, if anything at all was the religious atmosphere of the Utah Highway Patrol? And do you think that the LDS church had significant influence in either the highway patrol or perhaps even the American Fork Police Department, a few new people in the police department.

Les Langford  01:39  Religious atmosphere of UHP

So I actually when I hired on in 1972, I was quite surprised that there was not a closer relationship with the church. In fact, there was quite a bit of activity that I thought was inappropriate, such as drinking, for example, they’d have conventions. And my wife and I would go to these police conventions, and there’d be three big vats of cold beer. And it wasn’t anything for the kids. And that was the atmosphere from through the 70s. Clear up into the mid 80s 1980s. That since changed, and I’m grateful for that.

Craig Foster  02:16

A lot of this is based on the series under the banner of heaven. But in the in the TV series, the police detectives and the officers refer to each other as brother and sister and even to to the suspects as brother and given my limited knowledge with with law enforcement officials. I had never seen that happen before. And I’m wondering, did you see that happen? Was this a common thing?

Les Langford  02:54

Never in 30 years. Not with any agency. 

Craig Foster  02:59

Before your first encounter with Dan Lafferty, were you aware of the Lafferty family? Did you, had you heard about them by reputation or, uh, seen advertisements for Watson Lafferty’s chiropractic service or anything dealing with the Lafferty family?

Les Langford  03:22 Prior knowledge of Lafferty Family

I knew nothing about the Lafferty family. Before my first contact with Dan, I did read an article that he had published in the newspaper and editorial about his constitutional views in regards to law enforcement and the laws that are current were on the books at that time. And that was my first exposure. He was running for sheriff. And he’d written an editorial saying that majority of the laws on the books were unconstitutional, because they prohibited life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. He said that the only legal law enforcement in the state was elected sheriff, all the others were appointed by the executive branch and therefore had no jurisdiction or not legal. And that’s why he was running for sheriff. And if he made sure if he wanted to eliminate a lot of laws that he felt were unconstitutional.

Craig Foster  04:17

You know, this is a good moment to perhaps, ask, and I don’t know, how much do you know about the constitutionalism movement? But I understand that, you know, in the in the 80s, at least, perhaps even into the 70s and later than the 80s. There, there have been some individuals who obviously kind of felt the same way as as Dan Lafferty. Could you if you’re aware of of that, is that is it prevalent here in Utah County and and if So, what? What did what do you know about —

Les Langford  05:04 Constitutionalism

That article that I read, and then my subsequent contact with Dan Lafferty was the first exposure I’d ever had about constitutionalism. Since that time I’ve had several contacts and I’ve had several running ins or you might say or dealings with constitutionalist and their views, most on their law enforcement perspective, also up at the legislature in some of the bills that were introduced before the legislature.

Craig Foster  05:32

Okay. And do you know, is there a big following or do you not know that?

Les Langford  05:41

Well, I don’t know that at this time at the time of the Lafferty incident, or was a huge following. And I didn’t realize that until we started going to court. And there was huge crowds who would come and actually disrupt court as Lafferty was convicted of various crimes, and then he went out and does a double murder. His following greatly was reduced.

Craig Foster  06:06

I can well imagine perhaps you could tell us about the different encounters you had with Dan Lafferty just kind of set up a little bit of a chronology of your encounters with Dan Lafferty.

Les Langford  06:21 Encounters with Dan Lafferty

So like I say it was the summer of 1982. Dan was running for sheriff had written an editorial I had read the editorial. And within just a very few days, I pulled a vehicle over for speeding. And I walked up, asked the gentleman who was driving for driver’s license, he said he didn’t believe in driver’s licenses. And we have a short conversation. And I asked him for his name. He said his name was Dan Lafferty. I says, Oh, I read your editorial. You’re running for sheriff. And he seemed to brighten right up he you. You read it? And yes, I do. I did. And I understand your position. First, I didn’t tell him I disagreed with him. I issued a citation for speeding. I believe I also issued one for no safety inspection. I’m not positive on that. When I walked back up with a citation, he says, I’m not going to sign it. And I says, your signature is only your promise to appear. He said, If I don’t sign it, what will you do? And I said, Well, I could arrest you. And he says, okay, and he took the ticket. And he wrote all over the ticket. He wrote all in the margins, and he wrote everywhere, but he never did sign it. And what he was writing was I waive none of my constitutional rights, signed under threat of imprisonment, things like that. He never did sign it. I just stood there and let him write all over the ticket. I thought the judge is gonna see this. And then I gave him his copy, and I left and that was my first encounter. 

Few, couple of months later, I stopped him a second time, had the same encounter. I was talking with another trooper. His name was Gary Johnson. And he said he had the same encounter with Dan Lafferty. So we knew that he had been issued three citations. We made an agreement if anybody else stops Lafferty. We checked on the citations. He hadn’t appeared on any of them. He had three warrants for his arrest. They were misdemeanors. And we agreed that if anybody stopped him, the fourth time that we would arrest him.

And I am driving southbound I 15 and Orem in a fully marked police car, and Lafferty passes me, going 20 over the speed limit. I radioed for backup. I said I’m going to be stopping Dan Lafferty and I need some backup. And dispatchers knew what the situation was, they sent two troopers out. I pull Lafferty over, I had a good conversation with him. He called me by name and said, you know my position, I says yes, I do understand it. I might add, each time I stopped him he’d only a roll his window down a short, very small distance. And again, I issued a citation. That was the four citation. And then I told him, I says Mr. Lafferty step out of the vehicle. And he says no. And I says, Mr. Lafferty, I’m placing you under arrest, you have warrants out for your arrest. And he says no. And I turned to the officer who was standing next to me and I says, “Go call a wrecker.” My intention was I would just hook on his car and haul the car and him off. As soon as I said, “Go call a wrecker,” he dropped the car in gear and took off. We jumped in our cars and we took out after him. We did what’s called a boxing technique. I could tell that he did not want to damage his car, because when I would get close, he would pull away. We ended up doing a boxing technique where we had an officer in front one behind the one to the side of him. And the place where we did the boxing technique was there steep embankment on the shoulder of the road. Once we got him stopped, my intention was I was just going to go over and break the driver’s window and take him out in custody. I’ve broken several windows before with a nightstick very easy. 

Unfortunately, one of the troopers whose name was Charlie Wilson, took his handcuffs, reached in the open window about four or five inches and placed a hand cuff on Lafferty’s left wrist. And as soon as he did that, I thought, Charlie, don’t do that. Don’t put your hands in the window. Lafferty reached over and rolled the window up on Charlie’s arms. And I had my nightstick and I started beating on the window. And my intention was to break the glass but with Charlie’s arms in there, all’s I was doing was damaging Charlie’s arms he was absorbing the shock. In fact, I hit the window so hard that I slid off the window and hit the side of the door and his white station wagon I had there were black marks on the door from where I was hitting the window and sliding off onto the door. Lafferty cranked the wheel hard to the right, and drove right off that embankment with Charlie pinned in the windows. The car almost rolled; it came up on two wheels. I thought, if that car rolls Charlie is dead and at that point, I actually pulled my firearm out. And I thought I can’t get a clean shot. That officer’s life is in danger. But there’s no way I could shoot. I re-holstered the weapon. The car came back down on all four wheels and when it hit, the jar knocked Charlie loose and he landed on the ground. 

Arresting Dan Lafferty

Lafferty continued to drive down the steep embankment. He paralleled the fence that parallels the freeway, continued on down the bar pit and then pulled back up on the freeway. The officer was with me was called Mike Reese, and he ran down to see how Charlie was doing and I jumped my car and took out after Lafferty again. Lafferty turned sideways in the road and stopped perpendicular to the traffic. I thought he had caused an accident. He shut down the whole freeway. He jumped out of his car and he was running up to the cars that were there saying “Help! Stop! Be a witness.” One of the vehicles that was stopped the driver of the vehicle, contacted us later on and said, “I’ll be a witness. He scared me to death. He almost wrecked my vehicle. And I was locking doors and rolling windows up.” I ran over at that time and I placed him under arrest. 

Once I had Dan in custody, I put him in my patrol car. And I says Dan, you’ve been a perfect gentleman up to this point. Why in the world did you act the way that you just did? And at that point, Dan told me go and read Doctrine & Covenants 98. I was not familiar with Doctrine & Covenants 98. But in that, he said “it’s the fourth time” and Doctrine & Covenants 98 refers to turning the cheek the first time, turning a second time, turning the third time. But on the fourth time you can resist, and he said it was the fourth time. 

Dan Lafferty Charged & Tried

He was charged with assault on a police officer, escape, fleeing, evading — he was charged with several crimes, several of which were felonies. He asked for jury trials on all of the court cases including all the speeding cases that led up to this incident. The very first hearing that was held because the first –the case that I just told you about — was a felony. It requires a preliminary hearing. And they disrupted the court. And they were led by his brother Ron Lafferty and they actually had to shut the court down. And they had to remand Dan back to custody and to jail. And this I met with the crowd outside the courtroom and told Ron standing there toe to toe with him saying Ron, I want Dan to be able to tell his story. I want him to be able to tell about his opinions about the Constitution. But you can’t do it if you disrupt the court hearings. You’ve gotta be able to have this in an orderly fashion. So that was my first contact with his brother Ron. During several one of the court cases, which was held in the old county building in Provo, Ron brought a brass band and they were playing the theme for Lafferty or the theme for “Rocky” and Dan came in dancing just like Sylvester Stallone in that movie Rocky, and they were playing that music. 

Dan Lafferty Found Guilty

Each of the court cases Dan refused counsel, he could have been appointed counsel by the state. He said he wanted to be his own attorney. And during his hearing he even took the stand and testified. And he said he likened this Utah Highway Patrol to the Gestapo. German Gestapo. Said it was a police state, that they were enforcing unconstitutional laws, criticized our uniform and the way that we did things. And his closing arguments to the jury was, “I want you to go into that jury room. And I want you to pray about this.” Every jury came back and said, “We did. And we found him guilty.” He was found guilty on every charge on everything. The final court, which was the big one with the felonies, it’s district court, he was found guilty of all charges. The judge told him, “I could give you probation, you have no criminal record. I don’t know what has happened here.” Dan said, “I would not recognize the authority. I do not recognize the authority of this court. I will not report to a probation officer, I will not do anything this court request.” The judge says, “I have no choice and to send you to prison.” And he sentenced him to one do one to five years in prison. That was December of 1982. And that Christmas, his mother called me three times at my house and said, “My son is in prison. I hope you can live with yourself. You’re certainly not a Christian.” And she called me three times. And when Dan went to prison, they did a psychological evaluation on him. It came back mentally unstable, capable of anything. And after 75 days in custody, they released him. And he never reported to a probation officer. And it was at that point that Ron and Dan grew a beard and started their criminal activity, I would call it.

Craig Foster  17:14

Yeah. What’s if anything, had you heard about Mormon fundamentalists? In Utah County? To that point, did you -?

Les Langford  17:25

Very little. And the reason I say that, as I mentioned, I didn’t join the church until I was in college at age 18. At age 19, I’m in the Marine Corps. At age 22, I’m on the Utah Highway patrol. I never took classes in religion, so to speak.

Craig Foster  17:44

Right.

Les Langford  17:45

And in fact, my wife and I, after I retired, served an LDS mission. And it was then that I really started dealing into studying the early church history. I was busy raising a family and fulfilling —

Craig Foster  17:58

making a living Yeah.

Les Langford  17:59

Making a living, and I did not know that much about early church history or fundamentalism or any of that.

Les Langford on the “removal” list

Craig Foster  18:05

Okay. So um, yeah, and it was a in this School of the Prophets, where Ron Lafferty produced for the group, his Revelation to basically get certain individuals out of the way. With Brenda and Erica being on the list. And if I remember correctly, were you on the list also?

Les Langford  18:42

Well, that’s, that’s a point that I need to be careful on. Because I was told I was on the list. I never saw the list.

Craig Foster  18:42

Okay.

Les Langford  18:47

I was told I was number six on the list.

Craig Foster  18:53

Okay.

Les Langford  18:54

And the detectives that we’re investing in. Derek Colwell, who’s now dead, was the one that told me after they had found his journal, and found his writings that I was number six on the list. But that’s hearsay, I never saw that, actually. But I was told that.

Craig Foster  19:13

Wow, wow. That’s kind of a good segue into the murders of Brenda and Erica Lafferty. And I realized that you you were not directly involved with the case. And so at any point, if you feel that you don’t know the answer or whatever, that’s fine, but I’ll go ahead and kind of ask a few questions in that in that general area. So first of all, did you know Gary Caldwell?

Les Langford  19:44

Very well.  okay.  Yes. And, and Randy Johnson. Also, right after those murders were committed, within one or two hours, they said, this is the Laffertys. And we knew pretty much it was Ron and Dan Lafferty. And because I had stopped the vehicle so many times I says, I’ve got a description and the license plate of the vehicle. And I called my wife. And I said, you get the kids, and you load them in that car and you go up to your mother’s house in Idaho. I says, Ron and Dan Lafferty have just committed a double murder. And I want you out of that house. I feared for my own family.

Craig Foster  20:26

Understandable.

Les Langford  20:29

I then worked 12 hour shifts, seven days a week. And I had my shotgun out. I went everywhere I could think of for the next two weeks, looking, where would the Laffertys go? And I was looking for Ron and Dan. And I thought when I find them, they better give up with their hands in the air.

Craig Foster  20:52

From what I understand, Alan Lafferty, when he returned home, it was about 8:00 PM, he had been working outside of the county, on on a job and he returned home. And so long story short, he obviously he found his wife and daughter, and had to go over to a neighbor’s to make the phone call. And I understand that, of course, with anytime you have a crime like this, the police are going to first consider the husband/father as the as the primary suspect. But within a very short time, as you said, within at least two hours they realized it was Ron and Dan. Within at least two hours, they had an idea that it was the Lafferty brothers and I know that they put out an APB on them. And you commented that you were trying to figure out, where would they have gone and were trying to go to the various places that you thought that they might have been. When they arrested Carnes and Knapp, how much did those two men talk?

Les Langford  22:18

Well, Chip Carnes? And I think it was Richard Knapp.

Craig Foster  22:22

It was Yeah, yeah.

Les Langford  22:23

Richard Knapp. They said, they gave him all the evidence they needed. They told him they’d gone to Wendover course and, and they got away from Lafferty’s, they had taken the car and discarded out the window as they were driving the murder instruments. And they got over by Palisades reservoir in Idaho, Wyoming, and discarded the briefcase of Dan’s which included his journal, he kept a very accurate journal. And then they fled on over to Cheyenne, Wyoming, and that’s where they were arrested.

Craig Foster  23:01

And I understand that most of the evidence, they actually were able to retrieve.

Les Langford  23:06 Evidence of the Murders

Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah, they retrieved the briefcase, the journal, the murder weapon. They’d sawed a shot shot got off. That was an error thing. I was told and this is hearsay, but I was told that they had taken these instruments, straight razor and a shotgun. They sawed the barrel off over at their parents’ house in Springville. And they consecrated them for the removal of these individuals that they felt at wrong them. I felt that his mother should have been charged with a crime. She was present at that time, as I understand. She was never charged. That’s conspiracy to commit murder. And she’s a witness to that. One other interesting note, so I was told that how they’d killed Brenda and I in fact, I sat in court and listened to the autopsy report and everything basically killed her three different ways. They beat her. They tied a vacuum cord around her neck and they slit her throat and they slid it so hard they nearly severed her spinal column. And then Dan went in and killed Erica, the baby with a straight razor. And he made a comment or Ron made a comment to Dan. I couldn’t have done that. Dan said he was no problem or words to the effect of the Lord was with me or words to that effect. Again, this is all hearsay. This is just testimony that came out and it came out through Chip and Knapp because they were there at the time. They of course had tried to go over to the stake president’s house. to murder him. Lowe as I recall, his name was —

Craig Foster  25:06

Estelle Stowe and Lowe was the —

Les Langford  25:10

Chloe Lowe.

Craig Foster  25:11

Yeah, Chloe Lowe

Les Langford  25:12

Chloe Lowe was the stake president or the stake relief society? Now, I don’t know if she’s ward or stake. She was Relief Society President that convinced them their wives to leave them.

Craig Foster  25:25

Right.

Les Langford  25:25

Both Ron and Dan at this point had been excommunicated. Now, I don’t know exactly when they were excommunicated. I thought Dan was excommunicated because of his criminal activity involving my story and going to prison. Randy Johnson claims he was excommunicated before that. So I don’t know. So I, but I do know he was excommunicated. And so there was and then of course Allan and follow their beliefs because our Brenda, and that’s what led to Brenda’s demise.

Craig Foster  26:00

Yes.

Les Langford  26:01

So.

Craig Foster  26:03

So were you involved in the trials of Dan and Ron Lafferty were you a witness for that?

Les Langford  26:12

no, I had nothing to do with the murder investigation. The only thing I did do is the very day of the murder, I contacted American Fork police department with the description of the vehicle: a white station wagon and the license plate number. And so they immediately put out an APB – all points bulletin – on that. That’s my only involvement. So had nothing to do with the investigation there. The only thing I had after that was Gary Caldwell, and Randy Johnson would contact me and kind of update me of what they had learned and what they had found. As soon as they found Laffertys and arrested them over at Circus- Circus Reno, they notified me, they knew that I, I was worried. I was worried for the safety of my own family. And so that was a big relief off of my mind. Find out that they’ve been arrested.

Craig Foster  27:10 Impact of the Murders on Utah Valley

Absolutely. In your view, what impact do you think the murders had on Utah Valley, Utah County residents, and just Utah Valley in general?

Les Langford  27:24

I think the biggest impact is like I say when Dan Lafferty started writing his beliefs on constitutionalism, he had a huge following. And of course, we don’t want any of us to have big government telling us how to run our lives. And maybe we start looking at some of the laws that are on the books and say, Why do we have those laws? Is that infringing on my personal rights. And the more he got deeper into this and got more in trouble. And then of course, now they’re doing murders. Their following dropped significantly. And so the impact that I felt was people woke up to say, Whoa, these are some real nuts out there. And you got to be careful on who you listen to. Today, we have the exact same problem. It’s called the internet. I was talking with a neighbor of mine, and this little off the side, but about people who leave the church, and how they will go on the internet and believe things that are written and they have no idea who wrote these, instead of going — we have a scholar gospel library, that is just a wonderful tool. And if you have a question, there’s an answer in that gospel library. And my neighbor who’s a stake patriarch says, if you’re on a desert, and you’re looking for a drink, why don’t you go to the oasis? The Oasis is the gospel library, where there’s all the answers are there if you have questions, and the church has been very open on all the topics so anyway, that’s a side note, but…

Craig Foster  29:07

it’s a good point. Yeah, the so when you when you would talk with the officers involved with the with the case, there’s there’s there’s debate as to how much with the murders that took place, how much was it religiously based and how much was it “We’re going to get revenge because these individuals helped our wives leave us” and and so did do you know, did the officers ever kind of indicate as to whether it was religious based, or was revenge or a combination?

Les Langford  30:01

Everything I saw in relation to the investigation by the officers was based on very professionalism. There’s a crime being committed here. We are solving this crime and we’re going to bring those to justice that that committed this crime. I never saw anything any religion enter into one way or the other.

Craig Foster  30:19

Okay.

Les Langford  30:19

It was a very professionally handled the American Fork police department and all agencies — that included the FBI, and everybody else who was involved with it. It was a crime scene, and they were investigating a crime and bringing the criminals to justice. That’s what I saw.

Craig Foster  30:36

That’s good. And I mean, obviously, they were two absolutely horrendous murders. And so I can well imagine the desire of the various law enforcement officials and the professionalism and trying to get this taken care of. Do you think that the Lafferty’s extreme behavior, particularly when it came to their, their views, the revelation of  – to put these people out of the way – et cetera? Do you think that this extreme behavior in the murders were caused or had a foundation in the teachings and history of the LDS church?

Les Langford  31:31

Well, they obviously, like I say, when I arrested Dan and he told me to read Doctrine & Covenants 98 he’d  obviously had been reading His scriptures. Now the interpretation thereof, and the application thereof, I think were their own creations: it certainly wasn’t anything from the church. But they definitely were radical in their beliefs. And they were using church doctrine to try to justify their actions.

Craig Foster  32:08

Those are the questions that I had. Do you have any other thoughts regarding your interaction with Dan Lafferty or what you saw from the case that you think might be of interest?

Les Langford  32:22 Lafferty’s Constitutionalist Views

There was a group by back in the 1990s that were going up to the state capitol, that we’re trying to establish rule of law in Utah, based on a Supreme Court justice, and his writings back in the 1790s. And what he was writing was, which was a minority decision, not a majority, was that a jury could be triers of the law. And not just Trier’s of the fact. And that’s what Dan was trying to say is, and that that whole decision was determined in Marbury vs. Madison, where they said the supreme court determines the constitutionality of a law. If you feel a laws unconstitutional, you take it through the courts. And the Supreme Court in Marbury vs. Madison said, the supreme court determines constitutionality. Juries do not determine constitutionality. Juries are triers of the facts. And the facts are presented before them. They’re not triers of the law. And that’s kind of what Dan was trying to do, is these laws are unconstitutional. So we don’t need to obey on words, the individual was judging the law. And that’s what he was asking the jury to do, is you have the jury, you have the right to judge this law, and you have the right to say this law is unconstitutional. And if it’s unconstitutional, then we don’t have to obey. IE, no registration, no insurance, no safety inspection, obey the speed limit, etc.

Craig Foster  34:04

Do any of you have any questions that that I may have missed?

Trevor Holyoak  34:09

There was one thing that you mentioned in one of the emails that you didn’t mention here. And that’s about what Ron said when he was arrested. So that was a good thing. I don’t know if you want,

Craig Foster  34:23

Dan. Yeah.

Les Langford  34:24

Well, I was Randy Johnson told me that and I talked with him today and he doesn’t remember that.

Trevor Holyoak  34:30

Oh, okay.

Les Langford  34:31

And he said, that would be hearsay. And I said, Yeah, I heard you say it. I wasn’t there. And Randy wasn’t there. It was the FBI agent that told Randy and when Randy got home, he they asked Randy and extradited him, and when he got home, he called me and he says, Hey, I got a story for you to put in your journal. I said, What’s that he says when they put the gun I told you he put the back of his head. I talked to Randy they said they put the gun underneath Dan’s chin and said, FBI, you’re under arrest. And he turned and looked at him and said, Well, thank God it’s not less Langford he’d to kill me, for he the shot me or words to that effect. Randy says I don’t remember that at all. And Randy, I says, Randy, you called and told me that. I don’t remember that at all. It’s what he I remember what he wrote. But he called me after he got home to tell me put this in your journal.

Craig Foster  35:30

Did you? Did you keep a journal during that time?

Les Langford  35:34

No.

Craig Foster  35:34

Oh, that’s too bad. Because that is a good story.

Les Langford  35:41

Well, I did do and I should tell you this. In the late 1980s, and early 1990s, I was writing stories for law enforcement.

Craig Foster  35:52

Oh,

Les Langford  35:52 Langford’s Access to Information on the Case

And they were being published. And the Utah Highway Patrol contacted me and they said, We want you to write the history of the Utah Highway patrol. And we want you to have it ready for the centennial of Utah 1996. This is a 1994. And I says, okay, and I put four stipulations on him. Number one, they have to review everything that I write, and they have to approve it. And if they don’t like it, they can change it. It’s their history. Number two, I have to have total access to all records. No files are closed. And number three, I have to be given one day a week to do this. I got two years to write this. I can’t be just and the last one was I asked for it. There was a secretary and a lieutenant colonel that were up at headquarters. I asked him, they would be my proofreaders because they were excellent in English. They would be my proofreaders, and they would review everything. They agreed. And I wrote the Lafferty incident. And that’s what I have here today. And this is what was published in 1996. And it’s actually on the internet right now. This is it.

Craig Foster  37:09

iYes. Okay, I’m going to be going and looking for that.

Les Langford  37:12

And I can show you exactly where it is. It’s on my website. I have a website.

Craig Foster  37:16

Oh, okay.

Les Langford  37:18

And I also have a ton of church stuff on my website.

Craig Foster  37:21

Oh, well, then I’m definitely interested.

Les Langford  37:25

Anyway. That, but I. Anyway, there’s a lot of details here and you may be interested in so I’ll leave that with you.

Craig Foster  37:36

Oh, thank you.

Les Langford  37:40

And I’ll show you how to get to that website.

Craig Foster  37:42

Yeah, I am interested. Yeah. That’s That’s excellent. Thank you.