In the 13th chapter of Ether, Moroni tells us that Ether went to Coriantumr and prophesied that if he did not repent, all his people would be destroyed except Coriantumr. Ether 13:20-22:
20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—
21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.
22 And it came to pass that Coriantumr repented not, neither his household, neither the people; and the wars ceased not; and they sought to kill Ether, but he fled from before them and hid again in the cavity of the rock.
That this prophecy was well known is attested by Ether 14:24:
24 Nevertheless, Shiz did anot cease to pursue Coriantumr; for he had sworn to avenge himself upon Coriantumr of the blood of his brother, who had been slain, and the word of the Lord which came to Ether that Coriantumr should not fall by the sword.
Shiz is overly eager to kill Coriantumr to falsify the prophecy.
Itemizing the parts of the prophecy we find that:
- All Coriantumr’s people would be destroyed and that though Coriantumr would live, he would lose his land of inheritance.
- Coriantumr would live to see another people inherit his land of inheritance.
- This group would be brought in the same manner that God had brought the first Jaredites. Ether 11:20-21:
20 And in the days of Coriantor there also came many prophets, and prophesied of great and marvelous things, and cried repentance unto the people, and except they should repent the Lord God would execute judgment against them to their utter destruction;
21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the land, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers. - This new group would provide a burial for Coriantumr.
These four points constitute a prophecy that Ether was commanded to witness and record. Ether 15:33:
33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.
Other than report that Ether went forth from the place of the last battle and beheld and recorded in his record the complete fulfillment of this prophecy, Moroni tells us nothing about how they were fulfilled. All we are told is that when they were fulfilled, Ether finished his record and then hid it in a manner that the people of Limhi could find it.
One possible reason for not giving these details may be that Moroni was in possession of the small plates of Nephi that contained the Book of Omni.
In the Book of Omni we find the fulfillment of this prophecy recorded by Amaleki. Omni 1:12-22:
12 Behold, I am Amaleki, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness—
13 And it came to pass that he did according as the Lord had commanded him. And they departed out of the land into the wilderness, as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord; and they were led by many preachings and prophesyings. And they were admonished continually by the word of God; and they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.
14 And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla. Now, there was great rejoicing among the people of Zarahemla; and also Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews.
15 Behold, it came to pass that Mosiah discovered that the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon.
16 And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.
17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them.
18 But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his language. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but not in these plates.
19 And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did unite together; and Mosiah was appointed to be their king.
20 And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.
21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.
22 It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward.
Unfortunately, The Land of Zarahemla was located in the Land Southward and Coriantumr’s land was located in the Land Northward therefore the group of people discovered by Mosiah could not be the ones destined to fill this prophecy. Fortunately, however, we have records showing that the Zarahemlites were probably a members of a group called the Mixe-Zoque who inhabited the gulf coast at the mouth of the Grijalva river and were composed of native tribes that were present when Mulek and his group came from Jerusalem. Sometime after the arrival of Mulek this group split and one part went north to the Huastec and the other group migrated up the Grijalva river where they were met by Mosiah.
Accorder to the geography described in Ether, the Land of Coriantumr was located west of the seashore of Ripliancum which interpreted was very large sea. The Huastec area is located in northern Veracruz inland and along the coastal plain. Recent investigations in this area at a place called Tomtoc have located ruins that date to the time of the Jaredites.
Although some of this information is speculative, it fits together nicely and supports a Mesoamerican location for the Book of Mormon as suggested by Sorenson.
Larry P
So, you’re saying the Mulekites with whom Coriantumr stayed were in the Huastec area (north), but the Mulekites discovered by Mosiah were south of that area. How did the people in the south get the stone with the record of Coriantumr? Maybe the prophecy just refers to any land in the Americas, not just the north part where Coriantumr lived.
The Book of Mormon doesn’t mention any encounters with people who didn’t come from the near/middle east. All the people they mention encountering have their story in the Book of Mormon. If the Mulekites mixed with the Mixe-Zoque, wouldn’t they write something about who they were and where they came from?
onika
Coriantumr probably wandered south to where the Mulekites were located.
He wasrobably aware that some of the Jaredites had escaped south of the narrow neck at the time of the serpent plague and was certainly aware that the land soutward had been preserved as a hunting reservation. At the time he joined the Mulekites, they had not seperated into two groups. The group that went up to Zarahemla took the stone with them. This group had Zarahemla, a decendent of Mulek as its leader. The Book of Mormon tells us nothing of the other group. It is interesting to me that the people of Zarahemla could not read the stone, Mosiah had to translate it for them. The also did not speak Hebrew having somehow lost their language and had to be taught the language of the Nephites before they could communicate. As for there being other people, Archeology tells us that there were. For a more extensive discussion of the presence of others read Sorenson’s work and check the Neal A Maxwell website.
Larry P
Larry P
Based on this interesting tidbit here is what I think might have happened:
At around 580bc Mulek arrives in in “Jaredite” land, north of Tehuantepec. Mulek and/or his descendants assimilate into “Jaredite” society(3,4). Eventually a group led by Mulek or his descendants heads south of the isthmus(3,4). Coriantmr survives the war and knows that there are others like him down south, so he heads down south. Coriantmr is taken in by the people of Zarahemla,a Jareditish people led by descendants of Mulek. Coriantmr makes a lame attempt at proving that he is their true king, this causes a division(5). A war breaks out to settle the issue; Coriantmr lives to see his faction lose and dies(6). The losers head north and the winners head south, with the winners keeping banner stone of the losers.
Just a guess.
Notes
1) If the prophesy recorded in Ether 11:20–21 was declared before the arrival of Lehi’s group then Coriantumr could not have lived no earlier than 600 B.C. If Coriantmr died just one day before Mosiah’s group arrived then he could not have lived later than 200bc. So Coriantmr died 400bc(+/-200 years).
2)The Coriantmr’s final battle happened in the north(Ether 15: 11).
3)Mulek landed in Jaredite country but his people eventually ended up south of the isthmus(Hel. 6: 10)
John Clark has noted:”Given what little is known of Jaredite settlement, we need to be careful not to imagine that we know more than we do. Second, the text states that the land southward was opened up during the days of King Lib. It is worth pointing out that the explosion of Olmec influence east of Tehuantepec (Sorenson’s land southward) occurred after 900 BC, with only spotty influence before. I think the text can be read as indicating that the south lands opened up at this time, with colonization being part of the package.”http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?…um=2&id=545
4)It isn’t after until Mosiah’s takeover of Zarahemla that Jaredite names(Coriantmr,Morianton,Nehor) and a word for grain(sheum is Akkadian) appear in the BoM.
5)Coriantmr makes a stele depicting his lineage history(Omni 1: 20).
6)The people of Zarahemla experienced serious wars and contentions(Omni1:17).
Pedro
My only differnce in opinion is your interpretation of Hel 6:10. There are two ways to read the phrase “land north”. Because it does not say “land northward” it is more correctly, in my opinion, interpreted as meaning true north being the opposite of true south. This interpretation would place Mulek’s landing near the ancient mouth of the Grijalva river near La Venta. Some archeaolgy showing bearded semite figures support this view. Both interpretations are possible but the end result is the same. That is that Coriantumr traveled south and was given succor by a Jaredite culture.
Your point 5 is of special interest. I have always assumed that some type of warfare caused the Mixe-Zoque culture to split with some going north to the Huastec and others going up the Grijalva to what was later called the Land of Zarahemla. Your surmise that Coriantumr, a man looking for a kingdom, was the cause makes good sense.
An additional thought. Because Ether was commissioned by the Lord to go forth and witness the fulfillment of the Prophecy, he would have had to follow Coriantumr and could not have finished his record until after Coriantumr had died. If this were the case then he would have hid the record among the ruins of this war for the Limhite search party to find. These ruins were more likely to be those mistakenly thought to be the city of Zarahemla by the Limhites. They would have been in the right location on the west side of a major river. This location also better fits with the description of the Limhite journey in that they turned back shortly after traveling through a land of many waters. It is also consistent with the distance from the Land of Nephi-Lehi being a reasonable distance to go before giving up and returning home.
Incedently, they were never lost. They always knew where they were relative to the Land of Nephi-Lehi otherwise they would not have been able to return home as happened to the lost priests of Noah.
Larry P
The scriptural passages say the Mulekites stayed where they originally settled. It says nothing of them finding other people (Jaredites) there. The Lord led them there and gave them the land. If other people were there they probably would have had to fight over it. Coriantumer, who was badly injured, was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, not the other way around. He stayed with them until he died and was buried by them.
If sheum is Akkadian, it is not a Jaredite word because the Jaredites did not speak Akkadian; it is not the oldest nor the original Adamic language, and it would have been lost from all people/civilizations except the Jaredites.
If the people of Zarahemla were mixed with Jaredites, they would have been able to speak the language of Coriantumr and would not need Mosiah to translate.
Hi Larry! You know that I cannot leave this alone. You have probably been expecting my comments. 🙂
You said:
Larry, I don’t follow your reasoning on this. As you mentioned to onika, it is quite likely that Coriantumr wandered into the Land Southward where he was “discovered by the people of Zarahemla.” In Omni 1:15-16 we read that after the Mulekites left Jerusalem “they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.” Notice that their journey through the wilderness was before they crossed the great waters. As onika observed, they had remained where they had landed, and were still there when Mosiah discovered them. Some people of Zarahemla later migrated into the Land Northward, or Desolation, where the Jaredites had lived. I don’t understand why you reason that “the people discovered by Mosiah could not be the ones destined to fill this prophecy.”
The Land Northward, is also referred to as the Land of Desolation because of the desolation caused by their wars (Alma 22:30; Helaman 3:6). Coriantumr was king over all of the Land Northward (Ether 12:1) but there was no land specifically named after him. The throne of Coriantumr was actually in the Land of Moron (Ether 14:6), which was still part of the Land Desolation (Land Northward). This was the Jaredites original capital and landing place (Ether 6:12, 27; 7:5).
I find no record that puts the Jaredite final battle “west” of Ripliancum, but rather it was south of Ripliancum (Ether 15:8-11). Ripliancum is not interpreted as “very large sea,” but simply as “waters” that were “large, or to exceed all” (Ether 15:8). Mormon describes the Land of Cumorah as “a land of many waters” (Mormon 6:2-5).
Omer, 3rd great-grandson of Jared, travelled from Cumorah eastward to the seashore. Therefore, the land of Cumorah and Ripliancum are west of the Sea East. Ripliancum and the Sea East cannot be one and the same.
Besides, the Nephite Civilization and the Jaredite Civilization coexisted on this continent for 400 years without contact. That would be highly improbable in an area the size of Mesoamerica (see quote below).
Sorry, Larry.
Theodore
Theodore
Unfortunatly, I do not buy your theory.
As for them not meeting each other, the Jaredites were in the land northward seperated by the narrow neck from the land southward.
Larry P
Larry,
In spite of the fact that you do not agree with my theory I sincerely appreciate your hosting it on your website.
Theodore
1)”The scriptural passages say the Mulekites stayed where they originally settled.” Which ones?
2)”It says nothing of them finding other people (Jaredites) there.” Not excplicitly, no. But it is implied. How else to you explain Nephites with Jaredite names?
3)”Coriantumer, who was badly injured, was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, not the other way around. He stayed with them until he died and was buried by them.”
How badly injured was he?
4)”If sheum is Akkadian, it is not a Jaredite word because the Jaredites did not speak Akkadian.”
I don’t know what language Jared and Co. spoke. But they were from Mesopotamia and Akkadian is attested in Mesopotamia as early as 2800BC. It might have been a lone word. I speak the English language but that doesn’t mean “taco” or “burrito” can’t be in my vocabulary.
5)”it is not the oldest nor the original Adamic language, and it would have been lost from all people/civilizations except the Jaredites.” Who said the Jaredites spoke Adamic?
What did Noah speak?
6)”If the people of Zarahemla were mixed with Jaredites, they would have been able to speak the language of Coriantumr.” Who said they couldn’t?
7)”and would not need Mosiah to translate.” Mosiah translated the stone Coriantmr left behind. Most people in ancient cultures were illiterate. If some of Zarahemla’s people were of “Jaredite” stock that doesn’t nessesarily mean they could read and write whatever script Jaredites used. IF as I said earlier, the winners kept the stone, that doesn’t nessecarily mean they knew exactly what was on it.
Larry Poulsenll
Could you please refer me to some good meso-material on the spread of Mixe-Zoquean language, that you described on this blog? Thanks 🙂
1) “Which ones?”
Omni 1:
16 And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.
2) You said the names were not Jaredite until after Mosiah moved into Zarahemla. They got the names from the stone that Mosiah translated.
3) He was injured badly enough that he fell down as if he were dead.
4 & 5) Noah spoke the Adamic language. Everyone spoke the same language until the tower of Babel incident. Then the language of each family/tribe was changed so the people would disperse into the world and not have a one world government, except Jared and co. Akkadian was one of those new languages. Jared would not have been around to learn any of the new languages.
6) They may have learned how to speak some from Coriantumr, but they couldn’t read it so they needed someone who could, using the power of God.
7) Even if most people were illiterate, the royalty and priests were always literate.
Pedro
I got this from Brant Gardner in a personal communication. He does discuss it somewhat, however, in “Second Witness” volumes 3,4 and 5. He gives several references to other publications.
Larry P
1)I don’t see how that excludes any movement after reaching the New World. God’s guidance ran out on dry land?
2)That is possible but in my view less likely. Naming your children after ancestors or using names that actually mean something to you seems more realistic than having people just say:”Hey, that sounds cool”. I also find it interesting that many of the dissenters in Nephite society have Jaredite names or names that sound Jareditish: Coriantmr, Nehor,Morianton and Gadianton come to mind. An underlying Jaredite heritage might have been a contributing factor in their dissatisfaction with Nephite society.
3)Yes, he fainted. That doesn’t tell us what his injuries were. Also, assuming he was the catalyst for a “Mulekite” war, who said he actually fought?
4&5)I would disagree with everything you just said 🙂
6)Or they could have known it from parents or grandparents, whatever “it” was. I agree that they couldn’t read it. What was it?
7)Who said the people of Zarahemla(the winners) would have been high elites in Jaredite society?
Onika, it is certainly possible that the scenario I have offered on this blog is wrong. Remember, I said: “just a guess”. However, more interesting to me about the things you said are the underlying assumptions that what you said recquires(only one human language until Babel,all of humanity centered at Babel speaking that language,all Jaredites dead but Coriantmr). I don’t think the scriptures can be used to demonstrate such conditions.
poulsenll
Just goes to show that I still have much to learn.
Pedro,
4&5) I’m getting everything from the scriptures. Where do you get your perspective from, history/archaeology?
Gen. 11:
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
1) Omni 1:16 “…they had dwelt there from that time forth”
3) Maybe the reason we were told he fainted was because he was found in that state.I’m assuming he lost blood like his other men:
Ether 15:
27 And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours, and they fainted with the loss of blood.
28 And it came to pass that when the men of Coriantumr had received sufficient strength that they could walk, they were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz arose, and also his men, and he swore in his wrath that he would slay Coriantumr or he would perish by the sword.
29 Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.
7) If there were no separation like you propose, there would have been elites from Mulek. Zarahemla had a genealogy is further evidence of royalty.
Pedro said:
The scriptures certainly do demonstrate the above conditions, to those who believe the scriptures are true. To those who do not the scriptures are mostly irrelevant.
Here is a classic example of how loss of confidence in one scriptural account can lead to the loss of confidence in another. If there was no Universal Flood then there could be no Babel. On the other hand, the account of Babel confirms the account of the Universal Flood. It is probably true that the language of Adam deteriorated and changed through the world over time. But Noah and his family were the only survivors of the flood, therefore only the language being spoken by Noah and his family would have survived the flood. That language was the pure language of Adam, and the language of the Jaredites (Ether 1:34-37).
Enoch was still using the pure language of Adam (JST Genesis 6:47)so we may safely conclude that his righteous great-grandson, Noah, was still using the language of Adam (Genesis 5:21-29)
Jaredite Names amongst the Nephites:
As onika observed, the Jaredite names amongst the Nephites could well have come from the translation of the Jaredite stone. Additionally, the Book of Ether gave the Nephites a record of the Jaredites, and it was to the Nephites what The Book of Mormon is to us. How many children in LDS society have been given Book of Mormon names since its publication? However, no one claims that there are Nephites among us (except me). Jaredite names amongst the Nephites are not necessarily evidence that there were Jaredites amongst the Nephites (Mosiah 28:17-19; Alma 37:21, 29-31), especially when the text is clear that there were not (see August 13th, 2009 at 6:00 pm above).
Theodore